Hello friends! Welcome to our discussion of When Women Were Dragons by Kelly Barnhill. This discussion is part of our 2023 Holiday Book Exchange. This year Jacilyn chose a book that has been recommended to her numerous times, and chose it for her and Michaela to read.
Trigger Warning!!! This book contains situations and subjects related to: sexism, misogyny, homophobia, death of a parent, grief, loss, adultery, abandonment, and emotional abuse.
Spoiler Warning!!! This post is full of spoilers for When Women Were Dragons by Kelly Barnhill.
Discussion:
Jac: Hello friends, and welcome to our discussion of When Women Were Dragons by Kelly Barnhill. This title was my gift exchange book to Michaela this year. In the past we’ve gifted books we’ve read before, but this year I decided on this one because 1) it’s been recommended to me by an inordinate amount of coworkers (perks of working in a library,) 2) it’s different than any book we’ve read in the past, and 3) Michaela and I are all about feminine rage. For me, the book definitely lived up to the hype. It wasn’t an easy read, emotionally, but it was a fulfilling read. I could relate to a lot of different aspects of the story - suppressed queerness, complex relationships with parents, having a parental role to siblings at a young age - just to name a few. The historical context of the story was interesting, but sometimes I felt a little unmoored in time. I don’t know if that was deliberate, or not. It was hard to know from what time frame Alex is speaking from, and I had difficulties keeping track of how old her and Beatrice were throughout the story.
Michaela: I thought this book succeeded in capturing that feminine rage. Later in the book we learn that it's not just women who are being abused, cheated on, or who are mothers, and even some who were not assigned female at birth, etc. who can become dragons. But even women who are happy in their lives can turn as well. The feminine experience goes so far beyond what others push onto us or do to us. I also related to a lot of the things Jac did. This book really captured the experience of being a woman, even if you didn’t have a life exactly like Alex’s you can see yourself in the roles of women in the book or personalities or experiences of those women.
I loved the historical interjections by Dr. Gantz’s writings throughout the book. Particularly the viking village, I found that fascinating. But in that same vein by the end of the book I felt let down by the lack of knowledge revelations shared with us. We spent a few chunks of the book trying to figure out more about these dragons and then at the end it kind of felt like a “happily ever after” type ending that didn’t give many more answers about dragoning, where they go, why they have the ability to change, why is it a choice for some and sometimes it happens without them really choosing, where do they go, how can some travel through space and survive, why can Beatrice turn back and forth, WHAT ABOUT THE KNOTS??? I have literally an unending list of questions, so I definitely felt unsatisfied by the end of this book because of that.
I think a lot of my let down with the ending comes from me reading a lot of plot driven, world driven, fantasy. World building in those books happens throughout the entire book and knowledge is either freely given or, if it is a mystery, it's revealed by the end of the book or series. I don’t know that I am a person who enjoys open ended ideas when it comes to stuff like this. I think back to books like from last year's holiday book exchange, Under the Whispering Door by TJ Klune. What is beyond the door in the attic is an open ended, up to your interpretation, kind of thing. That I absolutely loved because there is no way for us to know unless we pass through the door ourselves. In this book though, we have these dragons right in front of us, living with the main character, researched by so many scientists, and yet no answers given when we end the book 50-ish years later. I like knowing the fate of the character and the world and the knowledge. I felt like we only got a look at the characters in this one. It reminded me of Practical Magic by Alice Hoffman, because that book is also heavily character driven which I also struggled with then but I also loved that book at the same time. I really enjoyed this one as well but the ending felt a little unsatisfying at the same time as wonderful.
Jac: Not going to lie, I had kind of forgotten about the knots by the end. You’re right, we have that little bit of historical info about how knots can have magic, and we learn that Alex’s mom was a great knot maker, and there was clearly magic involved considering that a bunch of knots would start to unravel at certain points of the story. Marla says that all women are magic, but that’s still not a whole explanation.
I loved that Beatrice ended up being the “Loving Leviathan” at the end who won a Nobel Peace Prize. It seemed to me like the author was trying to illustrate what the world could potentially look like now if women had been given their rights and freedoms much earlier. Perhaps we’d live in a world with less patriarchy, more peace, more advancements. That being said, it still felt a bit pie in the sky with the happily ever after ending. I really wasn’t certain if Alex would choose to dragon with Sonja or not, but I leaned towards her staying in her human body. I thought that maybe she would dragon when she reached an older age, though. I was kind of disappointed that that didn’t happen. I would have loved to know how it would feel for Alex to finally embrace that fire and that fierce joy.
Can we talk about the queer poly relationship Marla, Edith, Jeanne, and Clara had? I didn’t even realize Edith was the woman who wrote Marla that letter that Alex had read until Alex was talking to Dr. Gantz about her “aunties.” The four of them brought me a lot of joy. It’s so lovely that Marla and Edith found each other again, and found other partners in Jeanne and Clara. They created a family along with Alex and Beatrice and that just makes my heart feel incredibly full. Speaking of hearts being full - that line about the magic of interlibrary loan was THE BEST. That’s one of my specialties in my career as a library employee. There is nothing I love more than getting my hands on the materials our patrons are looking for. In fact, I really adored the importance of the library in this story. If only we could all have libraries and directors like Mrs. Gyzinska who has a seemingly endless supply of funds and connections.
Michaela and I were discussing the differences in what we’re most drawn to in books. Of course I love a good plot and Michaela loves good characters, but I am more drawn to character-driven stories, and she is more drawn to plot-driven stories, so our slightly different experiences with this book make sense to me. I also got some of the same vibes from this book as Practical Magic, particularly when it comes to the themes of relationships between women, and family, and love, and feminine magic.
Michaela: I desperately wanted Alex to let go and dragon at some point in her life. And I’m really sad she never did. She had a good life with a loving wife, but even after that loss she still didn’t accept the calling. I think that’s what bothered me most about that, she felt the call to dragon over and over again. However, I think Alex never turning could potentially represent how hard it is to let go of prejudice, or just how hard it is to accept one’s true self. We live in a patriarchy that is constantly telling us, even still today unfortunately, that women do not deserve rights, nothing we do is ever worth anything, the woman experience is completely contradictory because of the patriarchal view of women. If you follow your career, “how could you be so selfish to not have children”, if you become a mother “so you’re just going to throw your career and life away”. You gain weight “oh you’d be so pretty if you lost weight”, you lose weight “go eat a hamburger”. You simply have a hobby “ugh that hobby is so cringe”, you don’t have any hobbies “oh my god why don’t you have any interests, you're so boring”. The list can go on and on and on. It literally never ever ends. And it can swing so far into forcing women into having children they do not want, will not survive birthing, cannot afford etc. The disrespect for the woman's life is so immense even now, 70 years after Alex’s memories start in this book. Alex was forced into ignoring, pretending they didn’t exist, and hating dragons that maybe she can never fully let that go, even if it's for herself to change. The other sides of feminine rage is feminine acceptance, feminine sadness, and feminine happiness. Recovering from traumatic experiences or traumatic knowledge is constant and some people may never fully move past those things.
I truly loved how casual this book represented a polyamorous relationship. It was not the main focus, it really was hardly even mentioned. It simply was and it was accepted and it was beautiful. With so much feminine energy being pushed down and hidden away, it was so nice to see four women simply existing in that love and respecting each other’s roles in caring for Beatrice, and also respecting that Alex was her mother at that time. I’m really impressed with Marla in particular, I feel like so often a child is put into a parental role and the parent does not respect that and just takes the role back when it suits them. Marla did not do that, she understood her mistakes and what she caused by leaving, despite it being good for her. Choices have consequences, even if that choice is good for the person making it. Marla did not come back and demand to see Beatrice, did not expect to become her mother again without Alex being okay with it. Marla, and the other women, accepted Alex’s role in Beatrice’s life. They did not challenge her, they supported and comforted, then when Alex finally came to them they were immediately there for her. On the opposite end of Marla is Alex’s father. Oh my gods, I hate that man so, so much. I had such a visceral reaction to every scene he was in, especially after forcing Alex and Beatrice to live in that apartment. Then he has the AUDACITY to judge Alex for not ‘finding a man and settling down’. If any man deserved to be devoured by a dragon, it was him.
I loved Mrs. Gyzinska with all my heart. And I really enjoyed Dr. Gantz as well. She was such a force of knowledge, acceptance, influence, and power. She wanted Alex to have everything she deserved with her education. She was determined to make it work out for her. I cried a little bit when Alex said that phone call was the last time they ever spoke, and only exchanged letters thereafter. You will never know the last time you speak to someone, especially those who only come into your life for a short while but change your life trajectory so completely. It reminded me of a few teachers, professors, and mentors I have had.
I feel so many things about this book, but in all I loved it. It captures the feeling of life as a woman, no matter what kind of life you live. Women all over the world are oppressed, suppressed, or judged in some way or another, and some worse than others. Women hold so much power by simply existing with feminine energy. Dragons were the perfect representation of feminine rage, and dragoning, that rage, can hit you at any moment even if you feel happy in your life. All women have experienced “the terrible audacity of men”. We all experience that feeling of disrespect, being ignored, being undervalued, unfair expectations, being denied access to information about our own bodies, our bodies and experiences being considered disgusting and therefore unmentionable. That list could also go on forever and ever. I don’t know if I would accept the call of the dragon myself, but at times I can feel that fire inside, that call to be fierce, the call to be feminine and untouchable.
Jac: I don’t think I could sum up my feelings about this book and the way it made me feel any better than what Michaela just said, so I think we’ll end it here today, friends. Thank you so much for reading, and we’ll be back soon with our next book, Astrid Parker Doesn’t Fall. In the meantime, have a peaceful holiday and may we all feel that fire inside us.
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